This weekend may see the fateful vote on ObamaCare, or it may be passed with twilight’s last deeming. There is not much time left for Americans to consider what is about to be done to them, and raise their voices in a protest loud enough to frighten nervous Democrats out of their parliamentary maneuvers. The ruling class wants this bill badly enough to interpret anything less than fierce protest as implied consent.
Even discounting the sewer system of underhanded deals and bribes needed to push ObamaCare through Congress, distorting it beyond any semblance of a carefully-designed plan, it’s foolish to accept it as a “solution” to health care “problems.” No government program is a solution to anything. I’m not referring to their inefficiency or cost. I’m talking about their very nature.
A government program is not a carefully-designed system, or even an enduring commitment. It is a promise. Systems require discipline. For example, the operation of an aircraft carrier is a very complex system, which relies upon many individuals to perform carefully-defined duties. Failure to perform these duties results in punishment or dismissal. All of the crew members understand this, so the system is reliable. When the captain orders a fighter to launch, he knows the deck crew and pilot will quickly obey. The crew and pilot, in turn, know that the captain would not order a launch for no good reason. Everything happens with speed, efficiency, and precision, because the system is illuminated by trust.
Government social programs don’t work that way. They can’t. Today’s Congress cannot bind future sessions with discipline. They can only saddle their successors with obligations. The national debt has grown to staggering proportions because debt is the only thing each new Administration and Congress inherit from those who went before.
When Barack Obama tries to convince you to accept a government takeover of the health-care industry, he is making a promise he won’t be around to keep. ObamaCare’s job-killing taxes are front-loaded, but in order to fool the Congressional Budget Office into giving it a respectable deficit score, its benefits are delayed for years. Even if Obama wins re-election, he would complete his second term long before the program was completely phased in… and no external authority exists to compel either Obama, or his successors, to honor the promises he’s been making.
Consider the question of public funding for abortion, which has led Democrat representative Bart Stupak and his little bloc of pro-life colleagues to withhold their support. They are ostensibly holding out for guarantees against government-funded abortions, but the odds that ObamaCare will never cover abortions are exactly zero. It’s simply a question of when, not if. Once the government controls the health-care industry, there is nothing to prevent Democrats from paying for any service their constituents demand. A future law funding abortion can easily be passed, or maybe even “deemed” into existence. Abortion advocates can use lawsuits to squeeze funding out of the government. Control of the health-insurance industry will give the government massive leverage to erode determined public resistance against any steps it wishes to take.
Think about the evolution of ObamaCare health insurance into single-payer socialized medicine, something Obama and the Democrats quietly promise to left-wing audiences. The government will have every incentive to press for this transformation, and arrange it by pushing private competitors out of the market, then presenting single-payer government health care as tomorrow’s “solution” to the problem they’re working to create today. There is nothing to stop them from doing this.
The only guarantee you have that ObamaCare will provide the promised benefits, and remain within its boundaries, is the trust you place in the word of Barack Obama and his party… and your faith in future politicians who have yet to be elected.
It is madness to extend such trust to the party of Charlie Rangel, John Conyers, Nancy Pelosi, Christopher Dodd, Barney Frank, and Harry Reid. There is no reason to trust an administration that places billions of dollars into the hands of unaccountable “czars,” including the odd Communist. Only a fool would believe the endless string of lies and deception from this President will magically transform into honesty and fidelity, after his angry demands for more power are fulfilled. A party that openly plans to subvert what little power remains in the tattered Constitution will not become more lawful after it seizes control of an entire industry. It would be idiotic to believe that a government whose economic projections have never come close to reality can suddenly predict the costs of the most enormous program it has ever produced. Remember, this Administration’s idea of a “system working” consists of frantic airline passengers tackling a terrorist seconds before his underwear detonates.
It would also be foolish to place such faith in Republicans, or anyone else. Today’s Democrats are not unique in their corruption, a cancer that can be driven into remission with electoral chemotherapy in 2010 and 2012. Massive government breeds massive corruption through its very nature – it is the predictable behavior of people who are no less greedy, ambitious, or deceitful that the most rapacious robber baron. They hide their avarice behind masks of finely chiseled sanctimony, but as the final maneuvers toward the passage of ObamaCare illustrate, they’re just as quick to bend rules and perpetrate fraud as any white-collar criminal.
It would be a horrible mistake to accept a deal with the creators of history’s most staggering natonal debt, based on assurances they will place your interests ahead of theirs, for decades to come. As Darth Vader memorably explained to Lando Calrissian, the State can always alter the terms of the deal, and your only recourse will be praying they don’t alter it any further.
Cross-posted at Hot Air.
@ Unmisinformed:
@ Tom:
Oh, and for the Palin apologists, here’s only a few gems from the almost-VP. Really, it’s hard to defend her:
“My concern has been the atrocities there in Darfur and the relevance to me with that issue as we spoke about Africa and some of the countries there that were kind of the people succumbing to the dictators and the corruption of some collapsed governments on the continent, the relevance was Alaska’s investment in Darfur with some of our permanent fund dollars.”
“Well, let’s see. There’s — of course in the great history of America there have been rulings that there’s never going to be absolute consensus by every American and there are those issues, again, like Roe v. Wade, where I believe are best held on a state level and addressed there. So, you know, going through the history of America, there would be others but — uh –.”
“[The Vice President is] in charge of the U.S. Senate so if they want to they can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes that will make life better for Brandon and his family and his classroom.”
@ Veritas:
Your challenge was ridiculous on its face because you asked me to defend a point I did not make. That’s a strawman by definition, and I will not stuff it for you.
I stand by the reference to Sarah Palin, for one because I knew you couldn’t resist the bait, and also because–just as I said–while she was exaggerating the kernel of truth doesn’t go away. And no, I will not jump on the bandwagon claiming she is an idiot or a fake; that’s the dogma of your worldview, not mine. Easier to attack the messenger than the message, which I note you did not dispute.
Gotta love your insistence on “non-partisan sources” and whatnot, too. I kinda doubt those exist in this debate at all, but I’m not going to fall into the debate trick of spending all my effort on the defensive end of “Oh yeah, well prove it!” It’s not worth my time to collect links for you that you could easily look up yourself if you had half an inkling.
As for clueless and ignorant, I stand by those statements because they are factually true. I said you are clueless regarding the whole point of Doc’s post. You have failed to acknowledge or even grok the logic therein, and indeed admitted you’ve chalked it up to mere talking points. For ignorance, you didn’t know about the alternative proposals, particularly that the GOP presented a bill. That’s not insulting, it’s just fact; by definition a person is ignorant of that which they do not know. I’m ignorant of proper canning procedure and how to build a satellite. You didn’t know certain relevant facts; now you do, or will if you are willing to acknowledge those facts without relying on me to do all the legwork sourcing them for you, which I will not.
Your closing argument that it’s this or bankruptcy is a false dichotomy. Other solutions do exist and they’re more sensible, less risky. Moreover, the surest path to bankruptcy is through this bill. Doing nothing would have zero impact on the government’s staggering deficits; the only negative consequence would be that the nebulous number of uninsured Americans will remain the same as it is now, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the country’s solvency. But this bill will have a profound cost. Even with significant accounting shenanigans, the CBO is still scoring the cost of the bill around a trillion dollars. Our country’s credit rating is at the point where China isn’t as interested as it used to be in buying our bonds; that money won’t come from nowhere. To even get that low a cost score it’s being offset with new taxes, which you seem to regard as economically neutral; those taxes will stifle our ability to recover. Indeed with our economy in its current state it’s a valid question whether the status quo isn’t worth keeping around until we can get our financial ducks in a row, but you’re oh so willing to completely and preemptively shoot down any more modest alternatives that don’t cost us a thing–that is, when you’re even willing to acknowledge those alternatives have been proposed in the first place.
@DOne … at least Ms. Palin knows the limitations of government … unlike her arrogant, elitist opponents who believe they are OMNISCIENT enough to get all the answers right for 300 million Americans when it comes to health care, that they can usurp our resources and decision-making ability to do so.
Until y’all recognize your own limitations, your credibility regarding Ms. Palin, or much of anything else, rings hollow.
Intellect does not equate to wisdom.
DOne,
Although this blog may be construed as a debate, the overarching issue is not a debate exercise, rather a desperate struggle for control, with one side wanting to preserve as much power in the hands of the people as possible, and the other willing to give even more power to the central government. Although it causes many of us no small amount of consternation that anyone would want to divest such a precious commodity to a government that has proven to be unworthy, we’re really not interested in knowing why, only that the dastardly act is being considered.
While your posts are thoughtful and polite, those of Veritas are smugly condescending, thus my direct implied promise of violent response, which he mistakenly translated into hate. If a rattlesnake lies in my path, threatening me or my loved ones, I don’t kill it out of hate, rather out of commitment to that which I love. When I step over its lifeless body, I am dispassionate about the corpse, but very passionate about my responsibility.
All of you need to understand that this is not a debate. We’re not sitting at the library engaging in theoretical fencing. This is conflict. Not armed yet, but getting damn close.
@ Lummox JR:
I suggested to you that your premise was false but gave you the opportunity to prove me wrong. You call this stuffing a straw man. I call it a diversion. If you cannot deliver on what you claim is omnipresent then it reduces your credibility in the argument.
But we mustn’t judge too harshly.
PLEASE, since you have told me my news sources give no treatment to these mild and/or minor changes that are going to have “zero impact” on our country’s defecit I would like to see it. And for clarity what I meant by non-partisan was something independently verified. Faux news, Glenn Beck and the CATO Institute are all right wing shills. So if you had some citation that comes from a venerable source then that would go a long way in supporting your point.
As my Contract Law professor always said: “If it isn’t in the contract it doesn’t exist.” Well if you can’t produce proof of your claim then it doesn’t exist. Like you said, my sources won’t show it. So its up to you to light the proverbial candle. Do I need to “Triple Dog Dare You?”
The CBO is considered the gold standard and non-partisan. You can suggest they were lied to and bamboozled. Can you produce ANY proof of this? If so I would have to say: CITATION NEEDED.
Your remark that status quo has a zero impact is incorrect. We know that Medicare will be insolvent in about 7 years. Since that entitlement program is one just about every Senior Citizen I know is in favor of it will be extended by hook, crook or new taxes. And as our population lives longer and the Baby Boomers move into retirement age you have a juggernaut of political will that is going to demand a continuation of the program. This is not my subjective opinion but it is as simple a straight line equation as seem to be popular in this forum.
By the way I admit I had to look up the word “Grok” because I never read “Stranger in a Strange Land.” I think you used it in the incorrect context. Just a friendly heads up!
Palin…oh where to begin? She is as much a curse as she is a gift. Plucked from obscurity where she governed a state that had a smaller population then most mid sized American cities. They needed a woman to attract disenfranchised Hillary supporters. How cynical is that?
The AP, Hank Paulson and most of McCain’s staff have all come out and shared that the woman was both unprepared and clueless. Is the Presidency such a joke that you would elect a person with absolutely NO qualifications to hold the office. Of course someone will jump in with Obama being unqualified but that is not true and is a silly diversion. Start a thread about Obama’s qualifications and we can discuss that individually.
What I am talking about is the “bait” you laid for me to comment on Palin. I could go on for hours and not cover all the verified problems this person brings to a political office. Simply put, she is NOT Presidential. Adding a “Y” to the end of words may be quaint and charming but its not the sort of thing that engenders the respect of our global adversaries and it sure as the day is long, frightens the hell out of allies. The woman didn’t know there were 2 Koreas. One might have gleaned that information from say a local TV broadcast in Wasilla. Since the N. Koreans were testing intercontinental rockets, with the potential to make U.S. landfall, while she was in office. Her interviews were reminiscent of my first foreign language based interview. I was equally impressive in being unprepared and unable to convey a point.
Surprise! I didn’t get the job…but at least it wasn’t in my native language. Come to think of it, maybe it wasn’t her’s either?
If the office of President were only a figurehead then her lack of…well…everything would be fodder for late night TV comedians.
After giving this a lot of thought, the only thing that makes sense is you on the right realize there is no one else. Romney will never carry the South because he is Mormon. Magic underwear, God of your own planet, an odd twist on Masonic rituals to gain access to Heaven….sure? Why not? I’m a sport, and clearly a person would HAVE TO BE. But the folks in the South see that sort of thing as a cult. So he won’t carry the South. I guess a Black Muslim, pals around with terrorists, Commie-Socialist-Fascist is a superior choice to a Mormon. If you can’t carry the South as a GOP nominee you really have no business running for office.
However absurd that description is of Obama I do remember Mrs. Palin saying all those things but perhaps not all at the same time.
So I suppose that means you are fresh out of choices and Palin is it. That is a gift, really. Because beyond this little digital oasis of right wing thought there is a real world out there. The Middle class is shrinking, the demographics are changing and all the huffing and puffing won’t change anything. Those who are so easily manipulated…that would be you guys…are in the extreme minority. Its a vocal minority with lots of people that self congratulate, or mutually admire each other but its fear based.
Fear is the logical equivalent of making a constant right turn…or maybe a constant left but then there would be a NASCAR analogy there….
Hey that reminds me…if Ya’ll can put aside your dislike for me for just a moment…why in God’s name is NASCAR interesting to watch? They just go around an oval track for a few hundred miles right? This is a serious question: Where is the entertainment?
Back to fear: it is a self terminating logic strategy. Obama is popular because he offered hope and a way out of the darkness. We on the left who are educated and worldly…some of us are even wise…were looking for an exit out of the last 8 years. Anywhere was better then where we were. So I will not defend every decision of the last year but they have been a damn sight better then where we came from.
RTR –
You had some good points from our last exchange and I want to discuss them with you but scheduling has pushed me onto this latest item. If I don’t get to them soon I hope we can pick up our debate on another matter.
Honestly, Tom was completely right when he said you were only here to talk us to death. You said yourself you’re only around for the comments and didn’t care about the post, which is trolling at its purest–particularly when done in an opposing venue. Neither of us is going to change the other’s mind. I’m not walking into cheap debate tricks (“citation needed” is a cop-out, and you know it) and I already explained why your “challenge” is bunk. I confess to using a cheap trick of my own, as half the point in bringing up Palin was to get you on a rant. I was right in guessing you’d care more about bashing her than countering her (indisputable) point that more giving more bureaucrats control over our lives would be an inveitable fallout of this bill, and twice now you’ve ducked that. This is to say nothing of the point of Doc’s post; I’ve given you three chances now to enjoin his logic–the central pillar of this little corner of the debate–and you have let those chances pass by. As for Medicare being on the path to insolvency, I’ll see your obvious point and raise you an even more obvious point: A bigger program similar to Medicare, and vastly expanding Medicaid which is already insolvent, will not solve that problem no matter how much you cut Medicare to pay for the new stuff. This is the newest and hardly the lesat of your self-contradictory positions.
But I’m done with this exchange now. If indeed there was ever any point in it we’ve gone past that. Last word’s yours, if you want it.
If only I really was going to get the last word…
The 2 posts on this blog I have seen are regurgitated GOP talking points with some analysis attached. If DZ was more active in the comments section I would be chatting with him. Maybe he normally is? I just haven’t seen him in almost 100 comments that have been posted since I joined this happy little family of enlightened debaters.
So I get to have fun with you and yours. And truly you are entertaining in the self congratulatory echo chamber sort of way. But its PRECISELY this reason that you will never lead in your respective groups. Because you lack the courage of your convictions. I have given you ample opportunity to make your case, but you have chosen to avoid it. Is that how you win where you’re from? Its a peculiar competitive style. I can’t imagine it has brought you much success in this life, at least not by the traditional definition.
Is there NO ONE ELSE who can actually support their claims with FACTS OR CITATIONS OF SUCH???
That was a bit of a spin on the scene from the movie Troy – Brad Pit kills the giant warrior in the beginning fight scene. It was dramatic…and I have a flair for that. By the way asking for a citation is neither cheap nor a trick. But is instead a required component of academic writing. A lack of citation in a scholastic article is the equivalent of just making shit up. It has become increasingly popular in the blogosphere (well maybe not the sites you visit) when “facts” are presented.
The insults that are hurled at me from behind computer screens may offer some warmth and self righteous comfort but no one should actually believe I am either intimidated or that there will be a true conversion of thought. Only a person incredibly naive would think this delayed communication forum is a path to enlightened discourse. I am here for the same reason you are, to be entertained. Though I am just open and honest about my intent.
In the words of the famous French writer Gide:
“It is indeed better to be hated for what one is, then loved for what one is not.”
Your friendship, admiration and acceptance aren’t my goals. I have been honest with all of you since the beginning – about 2 days ago for me. I am challenging the lies you are repeating. Think of it as a truth tax. The truth shall set you free, but the lies cost. And I exact a heavy toll.
That toll is your pride. Because we ALL recognize you have lost as soon as you choose to go personal and not answer the question. No matter how you try to hide it in the cover of insults you know you’ve lost by forfeit. How embarrassing really that instead of at least saying we must agree to disagree you have taken the low road.
I’ve always thought its better to die on your feet then live on your knees. Seems most of you can talk a fair game…but you don’t deliver the goods when the chips are down.
I have a lot of other metaphors and analogies by the way….stick around they really add to the conversation!
If that was just my chest pounding why would the response be death threats and personal attacks. Is this a hybrid mix of the 2nd and 7th grade of preliminary school? So easily are the weak and weak minded that they are moved to violence and vitriol with the slightest provocation. But they are as predictable in their actions as is their hollow and vain words.
I could crawl down into the gutter where so many here have the home filed advantage, but just being here is an away game isn’t it? So I step up and bring my truths to you. Denial is the most obvious and predictable of all human emotions. Then anger of course comes next. Yet so few of you can actually stand up and make a civil argument. How is that?
You can refuse to talk to me of course, and then hurl insults via your responses to each other. If being a coward is part of your strategy then that would be the path to take. But that won’t stop me…and you know that. DZ can block or erase my comments but I can always log on with an alias if I really want to. And honestly that would be the same as admitting defeat. If you can’t win at home in a friendly venue then you’re just talking to yourselves. Besides…its the act of a coward to run away from a good fight. Not to mention the shame it would bring a person honest about themselves and their abilities.
Then again I did triple dog dare you and you could never produce anything you claim to be real…so maybe you should run away? Can a Lummox run by the way? It seems a physical challenge to that Endomorphic body type.
I would say I await well thought out and civil response but I think today’s vote will send a few of you into fever pitch.
Oh, by the way health care reform will be passing the house sometime today. That means I win, so if its a binary system you would have to the losers, again.
But in this rare case you will be the beneficiaries of the bill too. We all win. Perhaps the real problem here is so many have been losers for so long they can’t even recognize when they have won.
@ Veritas:
I’ve been away from the Internet on a camping trip for a couple of days, and only just now had an opportunity to catch up on the comments. I instituted an un-registered comment section to provide a forum for my visitors to provide comments and feedback, without having to go through the registration hurdles of larger sites like Hot Air. As long as you observe a measure of decorum, you will continue to be welcome here. If I decide to ban you, please abandon any illusions that you will be returning under a different user name. I would prefer not to switch to registered comments, but I will, if moderating this forum becomes an undue demand on my time.
Having said that, I haven’t been overwhelmed with the quality of your posts so far. You plead for a higher level of discourse, but your very first post contained third-grade taunts about my pseudonym. You’re not in any position to lecture anyone else about personal attacks, although a polite apology would improve your position considerably.
You’ve filled my website with kilobytes of pretentious twaddle about what an intelligent person you are, but still haven’t shown us an example of your glorious socialism producing any of the benefits it promises, let alone prosperity for all. I assume you’re a resident of Cuba, since it is the most perfect existing example of the system you profess to love. You’re obviously not a dissident, so your food rations must be intact. Would you hop on down to the corner grocery and give us a report on the conditions of the bread aisle?
While your empty belligerence is annoying, I’ll be a good host and refrain from taking your thousand dollars away – it would be a simple matter of posting a dozen of the socialized medicine horror stories from Britain that Paul Krugman foolishly asserts are false.
A bit of advice for you: drop the tinfoil-hat nonsense about the Soviet Union and similar tyrannies becoming nasty places only when “right wingers” take over and turn communism sour. Defining everything bad as “right wing,” and asserting right-wingery is therefore the cause of everything bad, is childish and would get you laughed out of a high-school logic course. Also, if your belief system rests on howlers like asserting a gigantic, budget-busting health care takeover won’t “take very much of our liberty,” it’s time to get a new belief system.
I remain dedicated to my belief in the power and justice of capitalism, the enduring wisdom of the Constitution, and the abject failure of collectivism around the globe. Sadly, it seems that places us on opposite sides of the issues of the day. You don’t have to agree with me, or supportive of my work, to be welcome here. You also don’t have to win vicious arguments with people to make valuable contributions to this forum. Step up your game a bit, set aside your straw men, stay on the topic of the thread, and do your best to make your case. I ask nothing else beyond polite respect for your fellow commenters… and that goes for everyone who chooses to engage in debate with you, as well.
@ DOne:
I would think Obama supporters would have learned not to try engaging in stupid quote contests with anyone else, including Palin admirers. It always ends badly for you, usually with screaming and crying about how he was tired when he said there were 57 states, and he can’t be expected to know who really won a Congressional Medal of Honor, blah blah blah. I’d back away slowly from that one if I were you. The drive-by Palin smearing you attempted didn’t even pick especially silly comments of hers. By the way, what does she have to do with the subject of this thread?
On another subject:
No one has ever been banned from Hot Air for “being a liberal.” It has a registered comment section with very specific rules of conduct, none of which make any reference to ideological content. Several outspoken liberals have been commenters there for much longer than I have.
If you have hard evidence of a Hot Air commenter being banned because they were a liberal, please forward it to me, and I will discuss it with Ed Morrissey and Allahpundit. Otherwise, I would request the favor of a gentlemanly withdrawal of your comment.
@ Veritas:
William Shatner once said “brevity is the soul of wit”.
Doc,
Nice to hear from you. I’m enjoying my time here with your, how shall I say…acolytes? They are a predictable bunch.
To your name, yes that was a silly way to come here and I should have shown you more respect as this is your “house.” I apologize that was bad form. I am confident we can find many other ways to disagree without deconstruction of each other’s monikers.
Honestly I have been looking for well reasoned and civil debate on the issues from Right Wingers. The major blogs are too large to get a going conversation maintained and I was asked to comment on your bread aisle analogy for a different purpose. I just cut and pasted my reply into the source blog, but should have edited it to speak to you and not about you.
The strategy that seems to be employed here is the same tired GOP talking points that are based on unverifiable conclusions. We can all state opinion as fact but there seem to be no citations to support them. In particular among the followers. They have mixed in hyperbolic statements with personal attacks. If that is the type of device you want to foster then I say status quo and go.
Or is this a place for debate? If that is what you truly are seeking then you should not only applaud but encourage my participation. As I have seen so far the comments that do not offer their congratulations for the perceived brilliance of your statements are nothing more then a race to the bottom in who can be more obnoxious in their insults and commentary on subjects in which they are dangerously ignorant.
Of course you can dismiss me as a “Communist” or Cuban or Chinese or whatever scares you the most. And Tom can rationalize his remarks by pretending he stands for something larger then himself while never having the courage to do anything about it. The old: “It will be time soon!” is the rally cry of cowards who wait to get up the will to be men and await someone wiser and more committed to follow.
But is any of this being honest about the issues? None of you really know anything about me yet you make the most absurd statements. It MUST be for entertainment because I don’t think you’re crazy…well, not all of you. So I hope it brings a smile to your face to suggest that I am advancing a Socialist agenda where anyone who bothered to read what I wrote knows I never made any such statement. As to the tin-foil fears, I have facts to support my positions and I am willing to present and cite relevant articles and academic texts. How about you Doc? Going to raise the game? Or are you going to keep playing bush league rules here in the wasteland?
Leaders are molded in the process and drive to success. I suppose that’s why so few can actually lead, and so many fear those that remind them of this fact.
Thrill me Doc.
Veritas wrote:
I suggest that you consider that ALL any of us know about you is from what you post here.
Are you surprised at the reactions to your posts? Your posts drip with your smugness and condescension. Do those traits make people like you in ‘real life’?
Veritas,
Thrill you? Judging by the length of your comments, nothing thrills you quite as much as the sound of your own self important, presumptuous blow-hard voice.
Beyond that, you deal your cards from the deck of old ideas, a deck with no aces, only faded kings and queens. Fitting perhaps?
Doctor Zero nailed you with “pretentious twaddle”. What happened, V, got exiled from your neighbor’s sand box for hogging the shovel?
Oh, and by the way, please learn to spell ‘than’ instead of using ‘then’ so much. It makes your slip show below your hemline.
Veritas wrote:
“Anywhere was better than where we were”?
You have no idea of the darkness that can fall, when you have that attitude!
Veritas … what “darkness” there was in the decade we are finishing, was facilitated by the conventional wisdom of the last century … a conventional wisdom you share.
It was Mr. Bush who lifted that darkness, by ending the illusion that all we needed for “peace” was an absence of conflict … and reminding us that without freedom, and the respect for it by the leaders of nations, peace is just an illusion.
The health care monstrosities you are supporting make the PATRIOT Act read like a libertarian manifesto when it comes to infringement of civil liberties … combined with the stated intent of the leaders who voted for it, it will lead to the imposition of a soft, cuddly fascism upon us “for our own good” by those who strain at the gnats of profit while swallowing the camels of tyranny whole.
You see us as ignorant hicks … when history reveals how those who share your thinking as the poster children for Romans 1:22.
Get treatment for your BDS, son.
Veritas,
I learned all I needed to know about you when you mentioned “same tired GOP talking points.”
You employ the very tactic you decry.
Since you’re obviously dense, let me explain: You insult when you mention “same tired GOP talking points” and yet, aren’t self-aware enough to realize that same insult has already been used against the GOP.
In other words, same tired old liberal assertion.
Wow kids, you all are so angry. Could that be because you backed the wrong horse again? The GOP failed to deliver which will help you.
How many of you I wonder have ever taken advantage of those horrible Socialist programs like:
A public school education, free school lunches, unemployment insurance, food stamps or any other type of public assistance.
Any Veterans? Have you EVER used any VA services like say the home loan program, the hospitals?
And how many got a loan through the FHA program or had that paper bought by Fannie May or Freddie Mac?
Any of your folks on Social Security or Medicare? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Rage all you will and use the circular reasoning to rationalize your incorrect arguments. They don’t work because deep down you know I’m right. At that must grate you in some uncomfortable places.
RTR, I don’t know if you are hicks as you say. But I don’t share your religious beliefs. They are just a superstition to me, as mine probably are to you. So going forward, citing religious documents and passages will only be fodder for my amusement. Maybe you can make a secular argument instead.
Kate you are right my crystal ball broke. But that is the nice thing about being a Progressive. We move forward and if the destination is dark then we will change course. I would invite you all to come along, but since WE are steering the ship and you choose to remain on it, then you will be joining us.
Of course everyone can fulfill there promise to either rise up and take the country back…if only you had a plan, a leader, an army, a model to replace it with, courage, conviction…well, you guys get the point. They do have exit visas but where would you go if you left this “Worker’s Utopia?”
Western Europe is largely Socialist. I would be AMAZED if ANY of you spoke a foreign language so that leaves you Australia and a few spots in the Caribbean. But I hear British Guyana is nice this time of year…and I think they are still technically Caribbean…maybe Atlantic. Oh there is South Africa…ahhh they have Socialist policies.
Hmmmm I mush have missed hearing about all the gulags being built down there. Must be the Liberal MSM just not reporting on it.
You know they speak English in India. You can go visit your old job while you’re there. Hmmm, unregulated industries move over there to avoid “job killing taxes.” Is moving the jobs the same as killing them? After reading the rationalization on this board I’m sure someone has told themselves it is.
But I am going to guess most of you are either from the South (including Florida) or the Mid-West. Sure there will be exceptions but stereotypes are just such a time saver. So where in the world will you go for the same climate…Lattitude 10-40…well that’s the 3rd world isn’t it!
I’m gonna go ahead and move on to the next string now, you can respond there if you like. I am going to challenge DZ’s assertions.
BTW if you want me to reply to you skip the personal insults and stale remarks. Spare me the name calling and I will do the same. Provide some actual data to back your assertions.
And quoting William Shattner? OK Jeep that was fun, you can keep doing that. Captain Kirk the sage of Star Fleet! That was funny, thank you. I rather enjoyed that.
Ritchie The Riveter wrote:
Neither does ignorance.
Doctor Zero wrote:
Oh, she was brought up and defended on the previous page of comments. Yes, Obama and his VEEP have said some incredibly stupid things, but to paint Palin as “wise” is nearly criminal. She (as Veritas pointed to some of the commenters) is nothing more than a shopping bag of Conservative talking points. Hell, there’s not even any vegetables in the bag; she’s unable to support her positions, and her bag, therefore, is full of empty calories.
@Veritas:
I can state with absolute certainty that the good Doctor welcomes dissenting opinion. He is very open to debate and should be treated as one who does. He (as you can see) will occasionally pop in with commentary in his forum, but leaves the fray for us most of the time.
A public school education, free school lunches, unemployment insurance, food stamps or any other type of public assistance.
All up until recent years, programs managed mostly at the state and local level … where they can be better managed than from DC … and when they have been mismanaged, nearly always they were mismanaged at the hands of well-meaning Leftists like those now in control in DC.
Any Veterans? Have you EVER used any VA services like say the home loan program, the hospitals?
That looks to me a lot like union workers getting retirement benefits via their employment … and our veterans certainly EARNED them.
And how many got a loan through the FHA program or had that paper bought by Fannie May or Freddie Mac?
And how many were recently led to ruin by the siren song of available credit beyond their means to pay, thanks in part to programs developed by Leftist social engineers and facilitated via these pathways? I remember how Fannie and Freddie were abused by the Powers That Be to the tune of billions … while their managers got bonuses on a par with the worst excesses of Wall Street that you Leftists are all twitterpated about.
Any of your folks on Social Security or Medicare? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?
Matter of fact, someone in my family just qualified to use their Social Security disability INSURANCE benefits.
But I guess you can’t see the difference between pragmatic deviations from your stereotype of conservatism, and the TOTAL IMMERSION IN SOCIALISM being sought by your allies currently in power re: health care.
So instead, you try to compare apples and oranges.
In these other programs — with the exception of food stamps and welfare, which do promote dependency that is detrimental to our nation, and are rather discredited in the eyes of the general public — the government does not seek to impose TOTAL CONTROL over that area of our lives … and has left the door open for alternatives. These other programs have left us able … and sometimes even empowered us … to find the best answers FOR OURSELVES.
That is not the intended plan for health care, according to the statements of those who have promoted this bill without presently reminding us that they see it as a stepping-stone to a full-blown, single-payer system where the Feds will have total control over the decision-making process AND the funding for ALL of us.
At best … just another tax-sucking/non-delivering entitlement scheme.
At worst … soft, cuddly fascism.
BTW, your condescension does nothing to further your cause … and while I don’t know what your religion is, you certainly support the secular variety of fundamentalism that rams your kind of morality down our throats … in an attempt to compel us to trade our birthrights of liberty and the pursuit of happiness for a Band-Aid(TM).
Like Xerxes in 300, your leaders define compassion as not forcing us to stand; but instead “allowing” us to kneel before them.
Great…there’ s a new category for the ignorami – Generation Depends:
Depends on government to provide healthcare;
Depends on government to provide for their well being;
Depends on government to determine our “rights”‘;
Depends on government to make sure they don’t fall down and scrape our knees;
Depends on government to correct all their failings;
Depends on government to provide jobs. Hmmm, that sounds a bit like…., no, it can’t be; that will never happen here. Yeah…right.
What we can’t depend on: the money the government is going to collect for this fiasco, if no one is able to stop this runaway train. It won’t be there in 4 years. We all know what government does when there’s money laying around, they take it. Need an example: Social Security. Where will they get the money then? Betcha they revise the meaning of “rich”. We’re all going to take it in the shorts when that time comes. My recommendation: Don’t bend over. Starting now.
X-Cache: Links that Have No Home…
Certainty of Death. Small Chance of Success. What Are We Waiting For? In the wake of Phillip Blond’s visit to Georgetown and the imminent passage of the Healthcare bill, we need to state clearly the nature of the moment: our time is defined by a pincer…